Sunday, April 30, 2006
Reading Comprehension +1
Just to clarify some points. You can identify Nick's words from mine via the quotation marks which surround his and mine, which are naked in their truth.
"Tom was attempting to write a column about how he likes his RPGs linear and his characters tangibly developed for him via black and white decision-making."
I never said I wanted a linear RPG. I will most likely bring up KOTOR for my examples in how an RPG should play since it's still the best I've come across. KOTOR is not linear at all. You can go to planets in whatever order you want. You can delay the main quest to do side missions. It sounds similar to what Oblivion is like, no? I love this style. What is different between KOTOR's side missions and Oblivion's are how much weight is given to them. There is no reason to do Oblivion's side quests other than fun. And they are pretty damn fun, which is why we keep doing them, but they don't exactly tie into a cohesive RPG universe. They do not affect your character at all. In KOTOR, if you killed certain characters or betrayed others, you would be unable to complete certain quests later in the game. There is no such punishment in Oblivion.
For instance, about two weeks ago Nick randomly killed off every pirate. He was later lamenting this fact. The pirates were dead! Now what? Yesterday, he was given a quest to kill the pirate leader. Nick was surprised because he had already killed every pirate. Who would be left? Lo and behold, when he boarded the ship once more, it was overflowing with pirate blood. Yay for continuity. Something like this would not be in KOTOR. If you had killed some Wookie Pirates, they would stay dead and the subsequent pirate killing mission would not exist.
Furthermore, there is no impending danger in Oblivion. It shouldn't be so easy to ignore the main quest for 60 straight hours like Nick and I have. There are gates opening up all over the land and demons running amuck in the countryside. Shouldn't there be some pressure to dispose of these in a timely manner? Why isn't anyone worried about the Oblivion gates? Without a compelling main quest there is nothing keeping this game together. It feels like a series of fetch quests. Damn fun fetch quests, but fetch quests nonetheless.
And who are you kidding; there isn't any real character development in Oblivion. If you belong to Guild that only means opposing guild members don't care for you. Since Nick belongs to every guild that means that most every citizen doesn't like him. Big whoop. It doesn't actually change anything. Sure, they might insult you behind your back, but they still give you any information you need. You can still buy goods from them and pay them for training. Other than leveling up, there is no difference between the character we started with and the one we are controlling 60 hours in. This is a problem.
Next point!
"It has brilliant visuals, writing, story, physics, AI, gameplay and game design"
I already conceding the graphics are the game's strong point. The writing is ok, though I don't actually care about the story at all. There was that funny bit yesterday about the Brotherhood guy killing a child, but most of the dialog is kind of dull. I mean, we do skip over it for a reason, right? Once you get the gist there really isn't a reason to have them even finish their thought. And don't get me started on the rumors. Are those even rumors? This is good writing to you?
The game has a fantastic world - complete with pretty graphics and amazing physics - and that's about it. The combat is generic and the story is forgettable. Your choices do not affect how people interact with you (unless you're a vampire). Every mission boils down to killing a person. There is no choice in this game. How many missions have you played in which the final goal was something other than killing a person? How many times have you been given an assassin mission and were able to avoid killing the target but still complete it? Is it even possible?
"True, I did join the Dark Brotherhood by killing an innocent to check out their quest line, but I've been feeling crushingly guilty ever since."
If you want guilt in an RPG you should try killing a party member in KOTOR. It's much more powerful than killing an NPC you've never seen before.
"In KOTOR, you were good or evil."
Not true. Every encounter you could choose what you wanted to do. You could be evil to non-English speaking males and nice to everyone else if you wanted. There was actual choice in KOTOR. What actual choices are there in Oblivion? Are there any choices beside "Should I kill this random guy or not?"
"What? What choices don't you have at your disposal? I'm truly lost with this one - sure, you have hundreds of missions with various complexities of framework, but you realize you don't have to do any missions right? And what kind of cohesion are you looking for, besides wanting to have your hand held again?"
The choices boil down to "should I do this mission or this other one?" That's not much of a choice. Cohesion means the mission are connected somehow. I don't think it's realistic that you can be a member of four different guilds at the same time. Does it seem realistic to you that the Mage's Guild would let you go around killing people for the Brotherhood? What if there was a real consequence to killing the pirates yesterday? What if you were kicked out of the Fighter's Guild if you slaughtered that ship full of pirates? Wouldn't that be cooler? I would prefer a game with actual consequences. A game where you have to decide if you want to be in the Fighter's Guild or the Brotherhood, but, because of a conflict of interest, you can't be in both.
Instead, we are given a mission where we have to kill one man but not his butler. When we end up killing the butler we still complete the mission, we just don't get as large of a reward. Does this make sense? And even after botching that mission, the head honcho still gives you a new mission right away? Shouldn't he lose his trust in your abilities? Shouldn't he try to assassinate you? Wouldn't it be cooler if you could tell the Count there is a secret headquarters for the Brotherhood located in his town? None of this happens. Every guild and mission is completely separate from the last. There is nothing tying them all together. This is why it's so easy for Bethesda to offer a new mission available for download on the Marketplace.
"There are many ways in Oblivion to build and equip your character to face greater challenges. Thus does your character earn the greater glory. And, best of all, you've done it your way."
In other words, no decision you make, no matter how stupid, can permanently affect your character. That's real nice right there. That's not what I would consider a realistic environment.
"Tom was attempting to write a column about how he likes his RPGs linear and his characters tangibly developed for him via black and white decision-making."
I never said I wanted a linear RPG. I will most likely bring up KOTOR for my examples in how an RPG should play since it's still the best I've come across. KOTOR is not linear at all. You can go to planets in whatever order you want. You can delay the main quest to do side missions. It sounds similar to what Oblivion is like, no? I love this style. What is different between KOTOR's side missions and Oblivion's are how much weight is given to them. There is no reason to do Oblivion's side quests other than fun. And they are pretty damn fun, which is why we keep doing them, but they don't exactly tie into a cohesive RPG universe. They do not affect your character at all. In KOTOR, if you killed certain characters or betrayed others, you would be unable to complete certain quests later in the game. There is no such punishment in Oblivion.
For instance, about two weeks ago Nick randomly killed off every pirate. He was later lamenting this fact. The pirates were dead! Now what? Yesterday, he was given a quest to kill the pirate leader. Nick was surprised because he had already killed every pirate. Who would be left? Lo and behold, when he boarded the ship once more, it was overflowing with pirate blood. Yay for continuity. Something like this would not be in KOTOR. If you had killed some Wookie Pirates, they would stay dead and the subsequent pirate killing mission would not exist.
Furthermore, there is no impending danger in Oblivion. It shouldn't be so easy to ignore the main quest for 60 straight hours like Nick and I have. There are gates opening up all over the land and demons running amuck in the countryside. Shouldn't there be some pressure to dispose of these in a timely manner? Why isn't anyone worried about the Oblivion gates? Without a compelling main quest there is nothing keeping this game together. It feels like a series of fetch quests. Damn fun fetch quests, but fetch quests nonetheless.
And who are you kidding; there isn't any real character development in Oblivion. If you belong to Guild that only means opposing guild members don't care for you. Since Nick belongs to every guild that means that most every citizen doesn't like him. Big whoop. It doesn't actually change anything. Sure, they might insult you behind your back, but they still give you any information you need. You can still buy goods from them and pay them for training. Other than leveling up, there is no difference between the character we started with and the one we are controlling 60 hours in. This is a problem.
Next point!
"It has brilliant visuals, writing, story, physics, AI, gameplay and game design"
I already conceding the graphics are the game's strong point. The writing is ok, though I don't actually care about the story at all. There was that funny bit yesterday about the Brotherhood guy killing a child, but most of the dialog is kind of dull. I mean, we do skip over it for a reason, right? Once you get the gist there really isn't a reason to have them even finish their thought. And don't get me started on the rumors. Are those even rumors? This is good writing to you?
The game has a fantastic world - complete with pretty graphics and amazing physics - and that's about it. The combat is generic and the story is forgettable. Your choices do not affect how people interact with you (unless you're a vampire). Every mission boils down to killing a person. There is no choice in this game. How many missions have you played in which the final goal was something other than killing a person? How many times have you been given an assassin mission and were able to avoid killing the target but still complete it? Is it even possible?
"True, I did join the Dark Brotherhood by killing an innocent to check out their quest line, but I've been feeling crushingly guilty ever since."
If you want guilt in an RPG you should try killing a party member in KOTOR. It's much more powerful than killing an NPC you've never seen before.
"In KOTOR, you were good or evil."
Not true. Every encounter you could choose what you wanted to do. You could be evil to non-English speaking males and nice to everyone else if you wanted. There was actual choice in KOTOR. What actual choices are there in Oblivion? Are there any choices beside "Should I kill this random guy or not?"
"What? What choices don't you have at your disposal? I'm truly lost with this one - sure, you have hundreds of missions with various complexities of framework, but you realize you don't have to do any missions right? And what kind of cohesion are you looking for, besides wanting to have your hand held again?"
The choices boil down to "should I do this mission or this other one?" That's not much of a choice. Cohesion means the mission are connected somehow. I don't think it's realistic that you can be a member of four different guilds at the same time. Does it seem realistic to you that the Mage's Guild would let you go around killing people for the Brotherhood? What if there was a real consequence to killing the pirates yesterday? What if you were kicked out of the Fighter's Guild if you slaughtered that ship full of pirates? Wouldn't that be cooler? I would prefer a game with actual consequences. A game where you have to decide if you want to be in the Fighter's Guild or the Brotherhood, but, because of a conflict of interest, you can't be in both.
Instead, we are given a mission where we have to kill one man but not his butler. When we end up killing the butler we still complete the mission, we just don't get as large of a reward. Does this make sense? And even after botching that mission, the head honcho still gives you a new mission right away? Shouldn't he lose his trust in your abilities? Shouldn't he try to assassinate you? Wouldn't it be cooler if you could tell the Count there is a secret headquarters for the Brotherhood located in his town? None of this happens. Every guild and mission is completely separate from the last. There is nothing tying them all together. This is why it's so easy for Bethesda to offer a new mission available for download on the Marketplace.
"There are many ways in Oblivion to build and equip your character to face greater challenges. Thus does your character earn the greater glory. And, best of all, you've done it your way."
In other words, no decision you make, no matter how stupid, can permanently affect your character. That's real nice right there. That's not what I would consider a realistic environment.
// posted by Tom @ 11:07 PM 
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